Nzingha’s comment concerning the advice given on the Saudi Guide To Dating, couldn’t have been truer. The Saudi Gazette reported:
American girl, Arab man get jail and lashes for adultery
By Adnan Al-Shabrawi
JEDDAH – The Summary Court in Jeddah has sentenced a 23-year-old Arab national and an 18-year-old American girl to one year in prison and 100 lashes each after they were convicted of adultery.
The father of the girl reported the relationship to the authorities after his daughter became pregnant.
The father accused the Arab man of intentionally doing so in order to force her parents into letting them get married.
The parents of the girl had previously refused to let their daughter marry the man.
The Commission for Investigation and General Prosecution (CIP) summoned the Arab man as part of its investigations.
The Summary Court issued its verdict after hearing evidence from the girl and examining a medical report.
The verdict has become final since no party raised an objection and no appeal would be made.
One hundred lashes is the punishment for unmarried adulterers. – Okaz/SG
Abu Hurayra and Zayd bin Khalid narrated about the story of the two bedouins who came to the Messenger of Allah(pbuh)”O Messenger of Allah, this son of mine was employed by this man, and committed Zina with his wife. I paid a ransom with him on behalf of my son 100 sheep and a slave-girl, but when I asked the people of knowledge, they said my son should be given 100 stripes and banished for a year, and this this man’s wife should be stoned to death.” The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said:
“By the One Whose Hands is my soul, I will judge between you both according to the Book of Allah. Take back the slave-girl and the sheep, and your son is to be given 100 stripes and banished for one year. O Unays-he said to a man from the tribe of Aslam-go to this man’s wife and if she confesses, then stone her to death.”
Sahih Muslim 3:1324
This indicates that if the one who committed the sin is single, he is asked to be banished for a year and be given a 100 stripes. But if married, then he/she should be stoned to death. Maybe they wil both get deported in this case because they are not Saudi.
2. In light of the above, the following should be observed and never under any circumstance should one be encouraged to date no matter how bad they desire it:
“Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: That will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty…” [Qur'an 24:30-31]
3. It’s no wonder the father turned down the request for marriage, this man’s character must have been in question anytime he thinks he can force the father’s hand by getting his daughter pregnant.
4. Notice how the father did not try to cover up his daughter’s wrong doings? The Prophet salla allahu alahi wa salaam, said that even if his own beloved daughter Fatima were to steal he wouldn’t hesitate to chop her hands off!
If she had lived in SA, Mary (Jesus’ mother) would have been flogged or even stoned as she was promised to Joseph hence technically married to him.
Those stories are just repelling to me. Sinners comdemning sinners (as we all sin…)
Note I DO NOT approve of what those two did. It is sin.
There was an episode on Dr. Phil about a similar situation. An American teen met an Arab guy and against her parent’s wishes they moved overseas together. I wonder if this is the same couple. The ages seem to match.
Emma, not true! Mary the mother of Jesus is held in high esteem woman and no faith or scripture has honored Virgin Mary and praised her virtues as did Islam and the Quran, not even the Bible. He would have NEVER called for her to be stoned to death because Allah AlMighty made it clear in His last revelation (The Quran)that a chaste and pious human woman who was chosen, purified, and preferred over all of the women of creation to be the one to give birth to the Messenger Jesus through the command of God. This is without any father whatsoever.
The Quran has dedicated a whole chapter titled Maryam (Mary), whereas the Bible, Virgin Mary was mentioned mainly in Matthews 1: 15 – 25 and Luke 1: 26 – 57.
Maryam is a role model for all Muslim women because she maintained her impeccable character throughout her life. In fact, The Prophet Muhammad said that Maryam was the best of women.
Also these are not sinners condeming sinners, these are punishments for breaking the law. What is the point of having a law (God’s law at that) if it will not be implimented. Allah’s laws are simple, just and equal for everyone, muslims or non-muslims, men or women.
This is another area the Christians when astray in.
Ah, Ummadam, Jews were following the Laws of God, too…and harshly (remember the story of this adulterous woman who was going to be stoned and that Jesus forgive and save?)
We can read in Matthew 1:18-19 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child with the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example , was minded to put her privily.”
Joseph and Mary were only promised to each other but, at time, it has the same value as marriage, so, technically speaking, Mary would have been found guilty of adultery. Joseph (who was a just man, meaning a religious man) didn’t put her away (that would have exposed her to judgment for adultery) because as said in Matthew 1:20 “But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceivef in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.”
It is only because Joseph effectively took her as his wife (thanks to the angel’s message)that she was saved of public shame and condemnation…
Yes, Mary is a wonderful servant of the Lord. But I also think the Bible is wise not to mention Mary too much:
-she is ONLY a woman (as you and me, though our callings are different than hers…)
-she is NOT the main “subject” of the New Testament: which is Jesus
We can see what’s happening when people focus too much on her: see the drifts of the Catholic church for example. (I know muslims are not guilty of those drifts)
Emma-
Islamic beliefs about Maryam are markedly different. One of the miracles of Jesus/Isa (peace be upon him) is that he spoke in infancy and thereby explained his mother’s innocence. You can read the english translations here:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/019.qmt.html
~Brooke
“-she is ONLY a woman (as you and me, though our callings are different than hers…)
-she is NOT the main “subject” of the New Testament: which is Jesus”
This is the difference between the Quran and the Bible.
In the Quran she is mentioned BECAUSE she is a pious woman.
Also the main subject of the Quran is not Mohammed, or Jesus; it is humankind in general, and how to live with Gods laws!
I think Emma is right in what she is saying. Mary r.a was not married when she was pregnant since the prgnancy itself under law within Saudi makes one guilty of fornication she would be flogged.
I have no reference to Joseph nor her intended marriage to him when she was pregnant as a Muslim hence I wouldn’t agree she would be guilty of adultery.. that said if she were married pregnancy wouldn’t be evidence of guilt in Saudi anyway.
having said that I tend to agree that pregnancy doesn’t equal guilt of fornication, for one has to ignore the other possiblity that she was forced by rape and hence became pregnant from that act. I believe it is Hanifa who voices opposition to pregnancy alone being evidence of guilt of fornication.
Now.. as a mom.. man.. can’t say I would be turning my girl in to be flogged. I wonder if the father will live to regret that choice. I’m also not one for exposing sin either.. so even tougher decisions to be made.
Is it really better that she be flogged the child be known as a bastard having no rights upon his father nor his father having no rights upon him and the girl being on her own?
would it have been better to cover the sin, allow the marriage than see if you can’t guide the boy onto a righteous path? And if things didn’t work out would it have been better to deal with a divorce rather than a public flogging?
tough spot.. i hope it is righteousness that guided the father rather than anger.
and the girl is american… will she be flogged???
Nzingha, Mary would not have been found guilty because revealation was sent down about her. Allah informed Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that Prophet Isa (Jesus)(pbuh) spoke as a baby and defended his mother when the people suspected her of fornication.
Another point that needs to be made is that the people who got flogged got flogged because of their own admission even if they were turned in. Even during the Prophets time he would turn away from people who were trying to confess because we are not to expose our sins if Allah didn’t reveal them. The proof for fornacation is 4 witnesses to the actual penetration. The punishment is not so harsh when you think of how difficult it is to proove. How many people do you think have actually been turned in by four witnesses? If one person walked in on you doing it that is not suffient proof and technically you could lie and you could lie about the pregnancy to. However, many will not lie even if nobody saw the penetration and only saw you looking/acting suspect and turned you in (and that person ho is exposing the other should fear Allah)and they will confess their wrong doing and take the punishment now so that the are saved from that on the day of judgement (assuming they sincerely repent and don’t do it again).
Tough call with what I would do as a parent. I seek refuge in Allah from my children ever being misguided in anyway.
O Allah make my children and all of my offspring pious. Allahuma aameen.
Emma, if a woman is considered the mother of God then I think the bible should have made that abundantly clear. This is one of the reasons why the Quran has a full chapter titled Mary – to clear up the biggest lie ever told on her. Being accused of adultery is nothing compared to what the Christians have falsely accused her of (giving birth to God!) Mary (pbuh), from whom Jesus(pbuh) was born, is subject to the greatest false charge which mankind has been placing on God by associating her as Gods pair with whom God supposedly begets Jesus (pbuh), and consequently Jesus (pbuh) is falsely promoted as son of God. This misconception is not only completely and angrily rejected by God in the Quran as the greatest false charge, but it gives the true narrative of what really happened (the following verses are not from Chapter Mary it is from another chapter because the Quran focuses on establishing truth and knocking out falsehood).
Birth Announcement of Jesus (pbuh)
The Noble Qur’an Al-’Imran 3:42-63
42. And (remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of her lifetime).”
43. O Mary! “Submit yourself with obedience to your Lord (Allâh, by worshipping none but Him Alone) and prostrate yourself, and Irkâ’i (bow down etc.) along with Ar-Râki’ûn (those who bow down etc.).”
44. This is a part of the news of the Ghaib (unseen, i.e. the news of the past nations of which you have no knowledge) which We inspire you with (O Muhammad SAW). You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed.
45. (Remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh.”
46. “He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous.”
47. She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.” He said: “So (it will be) for Allâh creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!” and it is.
48. And He (Allâh) will teach him ['Iesa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.), (and) the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).
49. And will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allâh’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allâh’s Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.
50. And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allâh and obey me.
51. Truly! Allâh is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path.
52. Then when ‘Iesa (Jesus) came to know of their disbelief, he said: “Who will be my helpers in Allâh’s Cause?” Al-Hawâriûn (the disciples) said: “We are the helpers of Allâh; we believe in Allâh, and bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allâh).”
53. Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger ['Iesa (Jesus)]; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh – none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh).
54. And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) <], and Allâh planned too. And Allâh is the Best of the planners.
55. And (remember) when Allâh said: “O ‘Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allâh's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allâh) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allâh, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Mûsa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur'ân] till the Day of Resurrection[10]. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.”
56. “As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.”
57. And as for those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh) and do righteous good deeds, Allâh will pay them their reward in full. And Allâh does not like the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers).
58. This is what We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Verses and the Wise Reminder (i.e. the Qur’ân).
59. Verily, the likeness of ‘Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: “Be!” – and he was.
60. (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt.
61. Then whoever disputes with you concerning him ['Iesa (Jesus)] after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus)] being a slave of Allâh, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad SAW) “Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves – then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allâh upon those who lie.”
62. Verily! This is the true narrative [about the story of 'Iesa (Jesus)], and, Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh (none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh, the One and the Only True God, Who has neither a wife nor a son). And indeed, Allâh is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.
63. And if they turn away (and do not accept these true proofs and evidences), then surely, Allâh is All-Aware of those who do mischief.
“would it have been better to cover the sin, allow the marriage than see if you can’t guide the boy onto a righteous path?”
Nzingha, you forget one important detail, marriage to a pregnant women is not allowed and will never be valid. You can cover the sin for the people but not from Allah. The couple would be living in zinaa and any other children they will have would also be bastards.
Ummadam, the Catholics (and Orthodox churches) say Mary is the Mother of God. Protestants denominations (accept maybe the Anglicans but I’m not sure) strongly reject this idea about Mary. For us, it is heresy to say Mother of God, the New Testament never say that for God has no “mother” of course.
Mary is the mother of Jesus who is fully man AND fully God. (I don’t expect you to agree with that,
) But this is the “man ” part that she carried (if I may say so, for there is not one part God, one part man in Jesus as I said He is fully man and fully God, that is God incarnate),God used her womb to carry baby Jesus.
Here we reach the mystery of the Trinity which we have to acknowledge by faith for it is far beyond our limited human comprehension.
ummadam- i get your point but i’m more addressing the issue of pregnancy being a form of guilt of fornication. Mary r.a. of course didn’t fornicate the people assumed she did but the pregnancy itself didn’t provide the proof. I think that is a lesson in itself and we shouldn’t jump to an assumption of guilt.
I also do understand that the intent of the law is not really to bring out the sin of fornication. I think exposing such a sin has a negative affect on society where the morals of the people become lax and they come to accept it as a norm. So and so does it and so does she.. soon you think everyone does it and your the odd one out. I think we see this within Saudi right now. which is why I would wonder if exposing the sin of the girl is the best option.
@umm maryam- I understand that a man is not to marry a woman who is pregnant with another mans baby. However this baby would be his not another mans.
If Allah were to keep their sins hidden I don’t necessarily think it is on us to expose them, label their children bastards and judge with no mercy in our hearts. Leave to Allah to judge.
This is in no way an easy situation for any involved.
“God used her womb to carry baby Jesus.”
so God used her womb to carry baby God?
And how is Christianity monotheistic?
Nzingha, wether it is the mans baby or not it is not allowed. A man cannot claim a child that is conceived out of wedlock period. This is the ruling of Allah not my own opinion.
Umm Maryam- since I’m in disagreement with it being haram for a man to marry a pregnant woman whom he got pregnant so with a quick search I found the following
http://www.themodernreligion.com/family/zina-marriage.html
evidently it isn’t so clearly haram.
Abid,
I didn’t say “baby God”, I said baby Jesus.
As I said Trinity is something that you accept or not. You don’t. I do. No need to insult me (or try to) by throwing the old accusation of Christianity not being monotheistic. we DO believe in ONE GOD, even if you don’t understand our doctrines.
Peace.
Emma-True Abid is lacking in social graces, but God willing he will grow some.
From my understanding, Christianity is monthestic in theory, but not practice. Trinity may imply “three in one”, but there is also the Christian practice of praying to interceders such as saints and the deceased. This is a grave sin in Islam as we should only direct our prayers to The One.
@ Brooke
Christianity can NEVER be considered monotheistic because they devote acts of worship to other than Allaah, which violates Tawheed in Uloohiyyah; and they liken Allaah to His creation, which violates Tawheed in Asmaa wa Sifaat.
Thanks Daud, I forgot about likening His creation, but I also wasn’t clear enough, because I know it is not monotheistic which is evident in the way it is practised (reality) regardless of people saying (theory) it is monotheistic.
Not ALL Christians pray to saints and such… Many churches strongly condemn this practice. Why do you think there was a Reformation?
How should I understand the practice of some muslims to go and pray on the tomb of some people, some “saints” (where some mosque might even have been built), of the pilgrimage to Mecca (the circumvolution around the Kaaba), …
In my church, we do not worship saints, we do not do any pilgrimage (that would be gaining our salvation by our own personal mean which would diminish or negate God authority), we do not have any “sacred” place to worship Him because He is everywhere to be worshipped.
And we always pray TO God (through Jesus).
I agree with Emma. I pray to God directly. Jesus did away with the need of the high priest (see OT and the Jewish sacrifice system) so we go directly to God in prayer through Jesus’ work on the cross.
We don’t try to earn our way to God with rituals and pilgrimages. The Bible is clear — we will never measure up to God’s standard. All our righteousness is like filthy rags in His eyes. It’s only the works we produce as a result of salvation that have merit in His eyes. And we don’t do those to earn salvation, but as a result of Jesus in our lives. HE works through us and that is beautiful in God’s eyes.
How should I understand the practice of some muslims to go and pray on the tomb of some people, some “saints”–understand that it is a major sin.
Emma-”Ummadam, the Catholics (and Orthodox churches) say Mary is the Mother of God. Protestants denominations (accept maybe the Anglicans but I’m not sure) strongly reject this idea about Mary. For us, it is heresy to say Mother of God, the New Testament never say that for God has no “mother” of course.
Mary is the mother of Jesus who is fully man AND fully God. (I don’t expect you to agree with that, ) But this is the “man ” part that she carried (if I may say so, for there is not one part God, one part man in Jesus as I said He is fully man and fully God, that is God incarnate),God used her womb to carry baby Jesus.”
Emma,
I know this is off-topic of the post, but I hope you see this, and you can respond if you like to me privately at akelios @ yahoo. com (just remove the spaces). I’ve never, even when I was a Protestant, understood the objection to the term ‘Mother of God’. The ‘high church’ Protestant denominations still use it, Anglicans, Episcopalians, and (at least) Missouri Synod Lutherans.
Mary bore Jesus. Jesus is God (to Christians). Yes, she bore His human body, but you can’t separate the human aspect of Jesus from the divine. They are one, joined, never to be separate. So, in that sense, she carried God (His incarnate Word, which is Jesus), for nine months. And after that, she raised Him. How is she not His mother? None of that means that she preceded God, or is somehow a divine entity herself, it just, to me, means that she conceived, carried, and gave birth to the incarnate Word.
Thanks,
Amber
Amber, I’m thinking that Emma and those who share her belief, view Mary as a surrogate.
Jumping back to the original article… does anyone know anything more about the circumstances? There are just so many strange things about this story. Clearly what they did was wrong, but in Islam (assuming those involved are Muslim – it wasn’t clear), the wali shouldn’t prevent an adult woman from marrying a man she likes, unless there’s a serious defect in his character or religion. If she’s not satisfied with his decision or his reasons, she can appeal to a judge or religious leader (though from what I know, that isn’t actually possible there). If these two wanted to do everything the halal way, tried repeatedly, and were unable to for reasons that are themselves unislamic… well, of course it’s still wrong, but the punishments specified by shari’ah were meant to exist within a framework of laws that also made marriage (and divorce) easy and readily accessible.
Were her father’s objections legitimate? We don’t know, because we don’t know what they are. Was the pregnancy intentional, to try to force his hand? We don’t know that either – we only have the accusation of the angry father, who clearly didn’t like the man to begin with.
From what I know of hadith, fornication/adultery is different from stealing in the sense that no one is encouraged to confess to it. In every hadith I can think of, the prophet (saws) purposely discouraged those who come to confess. With that in mind, turning one’s own daughter in to the police seems heavy-handed, and probably done more out of spite than righteousness.
Just my two cents, reading between the lines. Does anyone have any more information about this case?
UmmAdam – if that’s the case, maybe they’d be more comfortable with the term, Theotokos (God-Bearer).
Jennifer – I did a quick search to see if I could find more information, but nothing else of any worth came up. However, and this is just my impression from reading the article, I’d think that the father objected on the grounds of a character defect. I mean, what’s the responsible, correct thing to do when the woman you want to marry’s father or wali says no? Go through the appeal process you listed? Or just go have sex on the side? Whether or not the pregnancy was intentional, they were still running around having sex. It gives the impression of a character defect to me, in both the man and the woman.
-Amber
Amber, I should just let you co-moderate. You’re doing a great job!
UmmAdam,
Thanks? *blush* I swear I’m not trying to take over your wonderful blog.
*looks shifty* Or am I…? *grin*
-Amber
Amber,
I cannot send my answer to your adress (?)
Ummadam, sorry I’m going to use your blog :
Amber,
Calling Mary Mother of God gives the idea that (roughly) God + Mary = Jesus. which is (of course) not true; It’s God = Jesus. Mary was a tool (with all the respect I have for her). A willing tool but still a tool for God.
Also I realize that many Catholics do understand that Mary didn’t preceded God, it is a “cautious” statement not to say Mary, Mother of God, because it can lead to many misunderstanding (as with the Muslims) and many heresies (like the worship of Mary).
Have a great day, Emma
UmmAdam, Sorry for borrowing the thread. I’ll quit it in a second, I promise.
Emma, That’s odd, it’s the right address. Did you take out the spaces? I put them in so the spambot’s don’t get the addy that way. akelios @ yahoo.com Just so we don’t hijack UmmAdams post anymore. Just take the spaces around the ‘@’ sign out and it should work.
“Calling Mary Mother of God gives the idea that (roughly) God + Mary = Jesus. which is (of course) not true; It’s God = Jesus. Mary was a tool (with all the respect I have for her). A willing tool but still a tool for God.
Also I realize that many Catholics do understand that Mary didn’t preceded God, it is a “cautious” statement not to say Mary, Mother of God, because it can lead to many misunderstanding (as with the Muslims) and many heresies (like the worship of Mary).”
So, if I understand the answer, it’s that people are misunderstanding the term, and rather than teach them the correct meaning, the decision is just to not use it, and (not you, but others that I’ve spoken to), be condemning and insulting about it? Because, while you may respect her, others have gone to the other extreme, and treat her as unimportant, just a womb. Wouldn’t it be better to teach them what is really meant by the term than to abandon it entirely? What about the term Theotokos? Is that any better, or more confusing?
-Amber
Amber and Emma…DON’T STOP! This is my first time ever witnessing a Christian – Catholic dialogue on a Muslim forum!
If my dh gets a chance I’ll ask him to take a look. He was born Catholic and later converted to Protestant and has been Muslim for about 12 years.
UmmAdam,
If you’re sure you don’t mind.
-Amber
POSITIVE!
That argument is a bit circular, if only because that ‘character defect’ didn’t reveal itself until they’d already been refused permission to marry. There’s a reason Islam encourages early marriage, and parents who go out of their way to make it impossible for their (adult) children to marry when and who they want shouldn’t get too upset when the obvious happens.
Of course it was wrong for them to go and have sex outside marriage, regardless. However, if you want to judge them by shari’ah, then you can’t just choose bits and pieces of it. Under a proper Islamic government, the girl would have had the right to dispute her father’s reasons for refusal, and have a qadi settle the matter. The Saudi government’s refusal to give her that right is unislamic, and her father’s reasons may well be also (though I obviously don’t know that, since I don’t know what they are). And yet, no one else at fault for this situation is being punished… I see that a lot in so-called Muslim countries.
I don’t think most people can say with certainty that if they were consistenly prevented from marrying, they would never fornicate. Regardless, I find the idea of a man turning his daughter over to the police far more troubling than a young couple (who tried to do things the halal way) making a mistake.
Ooooh, just re-read your post, Amber
) To clarify, I’m pretty sure that appeals process doesn’t actually exist in Saudi law. I’ve not yet seen an Arab country where it does.
Jennifer,
Yes, if that was his only ‘character defect’, it is circular. And without knowing more of the story, it’s impossible to make a judgment either way. However, I would guess that that is not his only defect, or hers. Of course, everyone has defects, were theirs bad enough to warrant the marriage not being permitted? We don’t know. Perhaps, even though his daughter was an adult, the father thought she was too immature for marriage, or there is something else about this man, or the pairing in general, that makes it a bad match. Without knowing the whole story, we’re just making guesses.
You did mention that the appeals process doesn’t actually exist in any country in the original post, I apologize, I missed it.
-Amber
I was thinking about this this morning while I was exercising.
The ‘character defect’ is not the fact that the man would have sex with a woman not his wife. That act is a symptom of the defect. Maybe the actual defect, which I don’t know what to call it, manifested in other ways as well? And even if there was nothing, and the father was unjustified in forbidding the marriage, I still am uncomfortable with the pair breaking the law for something as nebulous and changeable as human ‘love’. That’s assuming that they are in love.
It may not be fair, Islamically or otherwise, but it’s the law, and I think you have to obey the laws of the land you live in. You break the law, you get caught, you get punished. I realize that’s very black and white, and that there are, in special cases, exceptions that are morally permissable (immoral laws), but in general, you have to live by the laws of the country you live in.
-Amber
Amber,
you said “Wouldn’t it be better to teach them what is really meant by the term than to abandon it entirely? What about the term Theotokos? Is that any better, or more confusing?”
Would you use the term “boat” for a “plane” and then explain to the people that “of course, it’s not really a boat, but a plane but we use that word because blah, blah… (it’s an extreme example, of course).
Mary is an EXEPTIONAL character, true, but she was still a human being and we are ALL called to serve the Lord the way she did: with humility and glad obedience.
The Bible is pointing to JESUS not to Mary. Jesus is important for us now, not Mary.
Emma,
Yes, your example is extreme, but also it’s incorrect. A boat is not a plane, and I can’t think of a single reason anyone would ever call them that. Unless we’re talking about Batman’s plane, which is also a submarine.
When we, or at least people who understand the meaning, say Mother of God, we’re not calling Mary something she’s not. And there are, of course, people who were poorly taught, who don’t understand, and (in extremes) fall into worship of Mary. They need to be corrected, just as people who feel no respect for her do. I just don’t understand not using a term or a phrase that is accurate, just because it might be confusing to some. I can see your point, I just prefer to try and make people understand is all, and yes, sometimes it might be like beating my head into a wall, and I might fail. *shrug* I do it anyway. I like to spread information.
I agree that Mary was an exceptional case, but also only human, and the only things that marked her out from every other person are graces that came first from God. And we are all called to follow her example, to obey God in humility and joy. To me, Mary always points to her son, Jesus.
-Amber
Emma,
I just wanted to add that I understand your aproach, and in some cases it might be the best way, to prevent people from falling into heresy, it’s just in general, I don’t believe that it’s the best way. I’m afraid I sometimes come off as criticising when I’m just trying to understand a different point of view.
Thanks,
Amber
Amber,
“Mary always points to her son, Jesus.”
Yes, indeed. So I don’t understand why Catholics make a point at refering to her so much, praying Mary to intercede for them,etc…
Mary takes TOO MUCH place and push Jesus to much out of the way for MANY. We are “Christians” not “Maryans”.
Ummadam pointed that the Bible doesn’t talk a lot about Mary, and it is true. Because Mary isn’t important for our salvation.
Emma,
“Yes, indeed. So I don’t understand why Catholics make a point at refering to her so much, praying Mary to intercede for them,etc…”
I’m not sure at what level ‘referring to her so much’ occurs. She’s certainly not the focus of the Mass, Jesus is. Asking Mary to pray/intercede for us is not praying to her, though I know many people may look at it that way. And no one has to do that, some choose to, in the way that a Protestant might ask their friend/brother/sister/etc. to pray for them.
“Mary takes TOO MUCH place and push Jesus to much out of the way for MANY. We are “Christians” not “Maryans”.
Ummadam pointed that the Bible doesn’t talk a lot about Mary, and it is true. Because Mary isn’t important for our salvation.”
People have gone awry, they’ve been taught incorrectly, or believed lies. All we can do is educate them, and correct them.
Amber,
“And no one has to do that, some choose to, in the way that a Protestant might ask their friend/brother/sister/etc. to pray for them.”
I don’t ask my dead friend/brother/sister/etc. to pray for me.
“People have gone awry, they’ve been taught incorrectly, or believed lies. All we can do is educate them, and correct them.”
Obviously there is a lot of teaching that need to be made.
Emma,
“I don’t ask my dead friend/brother/sister/etc. to pray for me.”
We believe that their souls are alive, in Heaven, at this moment. They are dead in the flesh, but alive, spiritually, in Christ.
“Obviously there is a lot of teaching that need to be made.”
Yes, there is teaching that needs to be done, on both sides.
Amber,
I want to really and humbly apologize for my last post to you. I think it was far to blunt (it was rude indeed!).
We might not agree on every things but I believe are still sisters in Christ and I didn’t show the meek and quiet spirit Peter is talking about!
Please, forgive me.
Emma,
Of course I forgive you. And if I said anything that caused you offense, I apologize, I didn’t mean it to. We are sisters in Christ, and sisters can disagree.
-Amber
Alhamdulillah. First of all, Muslims should no better than to believe what is printed in the newspaper. Yes there is a case with an American Muslim girl and yes she was sentanced to 100 lashes. Notice that the nationality of the man was not printed in the article. That is because the only thing that makes this “news worthy” is that the girl is American. Most of the “facts” printed about the case have been misprinted or are wrong.
The reason she was sentanced is because, against her father’s advice, she confessed in the court. As in Islam, no one gets the full punishment for Zina, unless they confess. (there is another possiblilty involving witnesses – but to my knowledge it has never happened in the history of Islam).
What most of you fail to remember is that Muslim families are large – even American Muslim families. Maybe this girl has many sisters. What kind of example would the father be making to let them marry, even after the fact?
Seek refuge in Allah for your own families and don’t riducule your brother, before he makes du’a against you. We will all be tested in this life. May Allah, Subhanahu wa ta’ala, Help us and Guide us to what pleases Him always, amin.
Friend of the family
I would just like to point out that the man in question had already been under investigation for immoral activities with another man’s wife. He was not in any way a good character, and no Muslim would want him for a son-in-law. The headstrong girl did confess in court, perhaps because the boyfriend was present. May Allah swt help this family, and let nobody cast the first stone, because yes, it can happen to anybody. May Allah swt guide them and us. Amin